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Non-deterministic sum of floats
The Next CEO of Stack OverflowAre RANK() and DENSE_RANK() deterministic or non-deterministic?SQL join with multiple columns as FK to same list tableMySQL returns floats roundedSelect data divided in groups evenly distributed by valueRound-tripping column datatype causes size of table to growCan I make this multiple join query faster?A Dynamic where clause in MS SQL ServerPerformance gap between WHERE IN (1,2,3,4) vs IN (select * from STRING_SPLIT('1,2,3,4',','))How to move a Daily Partition to a Monthly Partitioned TableTrying to insert only unique items into one table and then create a many to many relationship in a join table only if that join does not exist
Let me state the obvious fist: I completely understand that floating point types cannot accurately represent decimal values. This is not about that! Nevertheless, floating point calculations are supposed to be deterministic.
Now that this is out of the way, let me show you the curious case I observed today. I have a list of floating-point values, and I want to sum them up:
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15) FROM #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
-- yields:
-- 13.600000000000001
So far, so good - no surprises here. We all know that 1.2
can't be represented exactly in binary representation, so the "imprecise" result is expected.
Now the following strange thing happens when I left-join another table:
CREATE TABLE #A (a int);
INSERT INTO #A (a) VALUES (1), (2);
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT #A.a, STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15)
FROM #someFloats LEFT JOIN #A ON 1 = 1
GROUP BY #A.a;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #A;
-- yields
-- 1 13.600000000000001
-- 2 13.599999999999998
(sql fiddle, you can also see the execution plan there)
I have the same sum over the same values, but a different floating-point error. If I add more rows to table #A
, we can see that the value alternates between those two values. I was only able to reproduce this issue with a LEFT JOIN
; INNER JOIN
works as expected here.
This is inconvenient, because it means that a DISTINCT
, GROUP BY
or PIVOT
sees them as different values (which is actually how we discovered this issue).
The obvious solution is to round the value, but I'm curious: Is there a logical explanation for this behavior?
sql-server floating-point
add a comment |
Let me state the obvious fist: I completely understand that floating point types cannot accurately represent decimal values. This is not about that! Nevertheless, floating point calculations are supposed to be deterministic.
Now that this is out of the way, let me show you the curious case I observed today. I have a list of floating-point values, and I want to sum them up:
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15) FROM #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
-- yields:
-- 13.600000000000001
So far, so good - no surprises here. We all know that 1.2
can't be represented exactly in binary representation, so the "imprecise" result is expected.
Now the following strange thing happens when I left-join another table:
CREATE TABLE #A (a int);
INSERT INTO #A (a) VALUES (1), (2);
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT #A.a, STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15)
FROM #someFloats LEFT JOIN #A ON 1 = 1
GROUP BY #A.a;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #A;
-- yields
-- 1 13.600000000000001
-- 2 13.599999999999998
(sql fiddle, you can also see the execution plan there)
I have the same sum over the same values, but a different floating-point error. If I add more rows to table #A
, we can see that the value alternates between those two values. I was only able to reproduce this issue with a LEFT JOIN
; INNER JOIN
works as expected here.
This is inconvenient, because it means that a DISTINCT
, GROUP BY
or PIVOT
sees them as different values (which is actually how we discovered this issue).
The obvious solution is to round the value, but I'm curious: Is there a logical explanation for this behavior?
sql-server floating-point
add a comment |
Let me state the obvious fist: I completely understand that floating point types cannot accurately represent decimal values. This is not about that! Nevertheless, floating point calculations are supposed to be deterministic.
Now that this is out of the way, let me show you the curious case I observed today. I have a list of floating-point values, and I want to sum them up:
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15) FROM #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
-- yields:
-- 13.600000000000001
So far, so good - no surprises here. We all know that 1.2
can't be represented exactly in binary representation, so the "imprecise" result is expected.
Now the following strange thing happens when I left-join another table:
CREATE TABLE #A (a int);
INSERT INTO #A (a) VALUES (1), (2);
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT #A.a, STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15)
FROM #someFloats LEFT JOIN #A ON 1 = 1
GROUP BY #A.a;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #A;
-- yields
-- 1 13.600000000000001
-- 2 13.599999999999998
(sql fiddle, you can also see the execution plan there)
I have the same sum over the same values, but a different floating-point error. If I add more rows to table #A
, we can see that the value alternates between those two values. I was only able to reproduce this issue with a LEFT JOIN
; INNER JOIN
works as expected here.
This is inconvenient, because it means that a DISTINCT
, GROUP BY
or PIVOT
sees them as different values (which is actually how we discovered this issue).
The obvious solution is to round the value, but I'm curious: Is there a logical explanation for this behavior?
sql-server floating-point
Let me state the obvious fist: I completely understand that floating point types cannot accurately represent decimal values. This is not about that! Nevertheless, floating point calculations are supposed to be deterministic.
Now that this is out of the way, let me show you the curious case I observed today. I have a list of floating-point values, and I want to sum them up:
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15) FROM #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
-- yields:
-- 13.600000000000001
So far, so good - no surprises here. We all know that 1.2
can't be represented exactly in binary representation, so the "imprecise" result is expected.
Now the following strange thing happens when I left-join another table:
CREATE TABLE #A (a int);
INSERT INTO #A (a) VALUES (1), (2);
CREATE TABLE #someFloats (val float);
INSERT INTO #someFloats (val) VALUES (1), (1), (1.2), (1.2), (1.2), (3), (5);
SELECT #A.a, STR(SUM(#someFloats.val), 30, 15)
FROM #someFloats LEFT JOIN #A ON 1 = 1
GROUP BY #A.a;
DROP TABLE #someFloats;
DROP TABLE #A;
-- yields
-- 1 13.600000000000001
-- 2 13.599999999999998
(sql fiddle, you can also see the execution plan there)
I have the same sum over the same values, but a different floating-point error. If I add more rows to table #A
, we can see that the value alternates between those two values. I was only able to reproduce this issue with a LEFT JOIN
; INNER JOIN
works as expected here.
This is inconvenient, because it means that a DISTINCT
, GROUP BY
or PIVOT
sees them as different values (which is actually how we discovered this issue).
The obvious solution is to round the value, but I'm curious: Is there a logical explanation for this behavior?
sql-server floating-point
sql-server floating-point
asked 16 hours ago
HeinziHeinzi
1,3721532
1,3721532
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
Actually, the link you're referring to does not say that floating point arithmetic calculations are always deterministic. In fact, in one of the answers it's mentioned that addition is not associative (meaning (a + b) + c
does not necessarily equal a + (b + c)
), which is also said in this answer.
If stream aggregation happens to process rows of each group in different order, this could explain the behaviour you observe.
Associativity has no relation to determinism, so that bit is misleading.
– Mooing Duck
5 hours ago
Non-associativity of floating point addition leads to non-deterministic behaviour of the SQL Server aggregate functionSUM()
, would you agree @MooingDuck?
– mustaccio
4 hours ago
No? Integer Division is a clear counterexample. It is non-associative, but entirely deterministic. Likewise, floating point division should be non-associative and still deterministic. From that, we conclude it's reasonable for addition to be non-associative and still deterministic. That being said, if the order of additions isn't deterministic, then the result will likewise not be deterministic, so your first and last sentence are still correct regardless.
– Mooing Duck
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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Actually, the link you're referring to does not say that floating point arithmetic calculations are always deterministic. In fact, in one of the answers it's mentioned that addition is not associative (meaning (a + b) + c
does not necessarily equal a + (b + c)
), which is also said in this answer.
If stream aggregation happens to process rows of each group in different order, this could explain the behaviour you observe.
Associativity has no relation to determinism, so that bit is misleading.
– Mooing Duck
5 hours ago
Non-associativity of floating point addition leads to non-deterministic behaviour of the SQL Server aggregate functionSUM()
, would you agree @MooingDuck?
– mustaccio
4 hours ago
No? Integer Division is a clear counterexample. It is non-associative, but entirely deterministic. Likewise, floating point division should be non-associative and still deterministic. From that, we conclude it's reasonable for addition to be non-associative and still deterministic. That being said, if the order of additions isn't deterministic, then the result will likewise not be deterministic, so your first and last sentence are still correct regardless.
– Mooing Duck
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Actually, the link you're referring to does not say that floating point arithmetic calculations are always deterministic. In fact, in one of the answers it's mentioned that addition is not associative (meaning (a + b) + c
does not necessarily equal a + (b + c)
), which is also said in this answer.
If stream aggregation happens to process rows of each group in different order, this could explain the behaviour you observe.
Associativity has no relation to determinism, so that bit is misleading.
– Mooing Duck
5 hours ago
Non-associativity of floating point addition leads to non-deterministic behaviour of the SQL Server aggregate functionSUM()
, would you agree @MooingDuck?
– mustaccio
4 hours ago
No? Integer Division is a clear counterexample. It is non-associative, but entirely deterministic. Likewise, floating point division should be non-associative and still deterministic. From that, we conclude it's reasonable for addition to be non-associative and still deterministic. That being said, if the order of additions isn't deterministic, then the result will likewise not be deterministic, so your first and last sentence are still correct regardless.
– Mooing Duck
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Actually, the link you're referring to does not say that floating point arithmetic calculations are always deterministic. In fact, in one of the answers it's mentioned that addition is not associative (meaning (a + b) + c
does not necessarily equal a + (b + c)
), which is also said in this answer.
If stream aggregation happens to process rows of each group in different order, this could explain the behaviour you observe.
Actually, the link you're referring to does not say that floating point arithmetic calculations are always deterministic. In fact, in one of the answers it's mentioned that addition is not associative (meaning (a + b) + c
does not necessarily equal a + (b + c)
), which is also said in this answer.
If stream aggregation happens to process rows of each group in different order, this could explain the behaviour you observe.
answered 15 hours ago
mustacciomustaccio
9,98772238
9,98772238
Associativity has no relation to determinism, so that bit is misleading.
– Mooing Duck
5 hours ago
Non-associativity of floating point addition leads to non-deterministic behaviour of the SQL Server aggregate functionSUM()
, would you agree @MooingDuck?
– mustaccio
4 hours ago
No? Integer Division is a clear counterexample. It is non-associative, but entirely deterministic. Likewise, floating point division should be non-associative and still deterministic. From that, we conclude it's reasonable for addition to be non-associative and still deterministic. That being said, if the order of additions isn't deterministic, then the result will likewise not be deterministic, so your first and last sentence are still correct regardless.
– Mooing Duck
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Associativity has no relation to determinism, so that bit is misleading.
– Mooing Duck
5 hours ago
Non-associativity of floating point addition leads to non-deterministic behaviour of the SQL Server aggregate functionSUM()
, would you agree @MooingDuck?
– mustaccio
4 hours ago
No? Integer Division is a clear counterexample. It is non-associative, but entirely deterministic. Likewise, floating point division should be non-associative and still deterministic. From that, we conclude it's reasonable for addition to be non-associative and still deterministic. That being said, if the order of additions isn't deterministic, then the result will likewise not be deterministic, so your first and last sentence are still correct regardless.
– Mooing Duck
1 hour ago
Associativity has no relation to determinism, so that bit is misleading.
– Mooing Duck
5 hours ago
Associativity has no relation to determinism, so that bit is misleading.
– Mooing Duck
5 hours ago
Non-associativity of floating point addition leads to non-deterministic behaviour of the SQL Server aggregate function
SUM()
, would you agree @MooingDuck?– mustaccio
4 hours ago
Non-associativity of floating point addition leads to non-deterministic behaviour of the SQL Server aggregate function
SUM()
, would you agree @MooingDuck?– mustaccio
4 hours ago
No? Integer Division is a clear counterexample. It is non-associative, but entirely deterministic. Likewise, floating point division should be non-associative and still deterministic. From that, we conclude it's reasonable for addition to be non-associative and still deterministic. That being said, if the order of additions isn't deterministic, then the result will likewise not be deterministic, so your first and last sentence are still correct regardless.
– Mooing Duck
1 hour ago
No? Integer Division is a clear counterexample. It is non-associative, but entirely deterministic. Likewise, floating point division should be non-associative and still deterministic. From that, we conclude it's reasonable for addition to be non-associative and still deterministic. That being said, if the order of additions isn't deterministic, then the result will likewise not be deterministic, so your first and last sentence are still correct regardless.
– Mooing Duck
1 hour ago
add a comment |
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